Listen to me talking to Winifred Robinson on Radio 4’s You & Yours about this issue, here.
Curiously, ever since I blogged about my confusion regarding my electricity usage meter running backwards following a solar PV installation, I’ve received 1000s ‘search term’ hits to my website on this very subject. It seems like there is quite a lot of confusion out there – not just me then!
To be clear, backward running meters only occur if you have an older, analogue style meter, like the one shown below, coupled with a PV system. In this case, every KwH of generated solar PV will be registered, consumed locally or not, through the electricity usage meter literally running backwards. If you generate more than you use (a possibility in summer months), over an extended period you could find yourself with a meter reading that is lower than your last meter reading. This is clearly not what is supposed to happen. Your usage meter should only register the amount of local generated power you use by not turning at all if your generated power meets your needs, and turning more slowly if it partially meets your need and hence your demand on the grid is lowered.
So far I have only come across one other person with an analogue meter plus PV, but she too had no idea that there was anything wrong, and certainly was not told by her PV installer (a different company to mine) that this would need to be changed. She has just celebrated her first anniversary of PV ownership, and hence a year of very low electricity bills too!
I find it quite astonishing, and not a little remiss, that the installers are not making this situation clear to customers. Is it not part of the basic PV installer training to warn people that this will be the case with analogue style meters, and that they will need to inform their energy company that they will require an upgrade?
I’m also not clear where liability lies in this situation? When you register your PV system with your FiT payment supplier (which does not need to be your energy suppler BTW) you do state what meter you have, but in my experience, and that of the other analogue meter/PV owner, nothing comes of this. There does not seem to be a recognition within the FiT payment suppller that this is an issue. Which is curious given that they will potentially be losing out on revenue if they supply your power too.
So, take the situation of a PV owner running an analogue meter for years before their energy supplier twigs. Will the householder be liable for paying back the actual amount of electricity they have used from the grid but not paid for? Apart from the issues surrounding the estimating of exactly how much is owed, on which side is the onus to ensure the meter is changed to a digital ‘backstop’ electricity meter promptly?
If the householder is not informed that it is a problem at the commissioning stage, and doesn’t really understand what is happening (I only realised there might be an issue because through the summer I was generating more than I was using, so had a negative meter reading situation) is it their responsibility, are they legally liable? Or is it the responsibility of the FiT payment suppler to check the meter type? But if the FiT payment supplier is not the energy supplier, then there is no incentive there either?
I agree that there is total confusion over this but you are not correct in saying that the meter should be stationary when you are making MORE than you are using because the supplier is supposed to PAY YOU for your excess production. EON are about to replace my meter since they discovered mine was running backwards, and my guess is that the new meter will record flow TO me and flow FROM me as separate readings and charge or compensate me accordingly. This is hugely disadvantageous to me as I will no longer be able to use them as a free storage facility for periods between readings. (Which is what happens when the meter runs backwards). DS
Hi David
Thank you for your comment. I would be very suprised if E.on does supply you with anything more than a digital ‘backstop’ meter when they exchange your old one. You are correct that your Supplier does pay you for excess production from your photovoltaic system, but they guestimate how much you use, the usual guesstimate is 50% export (although you can inform them if you think it is more than this, or less), so usually we get an extra 3pence on top of the 43pence on half of our declared generated power. There are export meters available, but they are usually only installed in bigger installations, where there is more at stake, in factories and the like. But if they do fit you with an export meter too I’d be very interested to here about it.
I’d also be interested in hearing about your experience about this generally, for example how long before E’on realised your meter was going backwards and took action, as I have the BBC potentially interested in a story on it and the more evidence I can collect that this is a widespread occurance – which google search term hits to my blog post on the subject tend to suggest – the better.
Best Paula
Hi.
I had solar panels installed yesterday, and the installer told me my meter was running backwards. I said that EDF had already tried to fit a new meter, but I was not in at the time, so they are installing a new meter a week on Tuesday. I hope its a meter that doesn't add the output/input together and produce a extrememly high bill as I have read some horror stories on the internet about this.
Ps…even though Scottish Power supply my electric and gas it's EDF that are fitting the new meter.
Thanks
David
Hi David
Thanks for your comment, I’d be interested to know how you get on. The reason its EDF fitting the meter, rather than your supplier (same with me, I’m with ecotricty but EDF fitted the meter) is because EDF will be your DNO – Distribution Network Operator – so although the market for supplying electrcity is totally opened up, there is still the old monopoly system of the energy companies being responsible for the pipes and kits, ie the distribution, in different parts of the country.
I’ve not heard about meters mixing input and output though? Do you mean that the electricty you generate somehow shows as ‘used power’ on your useage meter? That sounds really odd?
Good luck with your system
Paula
As a newbie just about to embark on PV, if i have an old anoligue meter it runs backwards, i get that, which is an obvious advantage. my (maybe simple) question is how does the consumer board in your house know to use the PV generated power before drawing it from the grid at any given time?
Hi Tom
Don’t worry the system is wired up so that the power you generate is always used in preference to pulling it from the grid. So, as soon as any generation is registering on the system, it ‘switches’ to using that first, and just takes from the grid any extra it needs.
Good luck with your system, be interested to hear if your electrcity compmany clocks you have an old meter and contacts you to upgrade it? Otherwise it will not be making much money from you come the summer moths 😉
Best Paula
I am trying to get my head round this as the PV installers are literally over my head at this very moment. I heard about meters running backwards yesterday but the seller did not mention it. My understanding is that the single new meter which comes with the solar panel installation will record all units generated. Until my electricity provider fits a smart meter (sometime in the future) and in the absence of two seperate meters to record 'used' and 'exported' units, there is an assumption by the supplier that I use 50% of the units I generate as recorded on the new 'generation' meter. This will result in payment to me at the two different FIT rates (currently 43.3p and 46.4p respectively, split 50/50). In addition, I will pay the electricity provider for extra units I import through the original meter (which has digits rather than dials). My conclusion is that the original meter should not run backwards as that will prevent the provider getting their legitimate payment. Hope that helps.
hi Andrew
Hope you’re enjoying generating your own electricity. You are right of course, your ‘use’ meter should not run backwards it should simply slow down and then stop if you are generating enough to meet your usage needs at any point in time, and it seems as if yours will not as it is a digital one, and not too old?. What you have is probably a ‘backstop’ meter. The problem arises with older dial- type usage meters which all seem to go backwards when PV is attached.
I have heard though, that the current crop of ‘Smart’ meters do not work with PV systems! I have not verified this officially but that is going to be interesting! I asked to get smart meter when I informed my energy company that my meter was going backwards but was told I couldnt have one at the time.
Thanks Paula. We're into our second day of PV generation and rapidly becoming sun worshippers. With clear skies this morning (am am) we're making about 900w currently (excuse the pun). The main meter is at a standstill as you said, so must have a 'back stop'. How billing happens with analogue meters running backwards, I don't know but it's not our concern. Interesting what you say about smart meters. Maybe they're not that smart. They do remote monitoring of course but I don't know what else. The only constant in life, as they say, is change. Cheers.
Hi. Another small question is about the FIT application form sent to me by the installer of our new PV panels. Our electricity suppler is scottish Hydro but the form is for British Gas. How does this work?
hi Andrew
This is interesting! Did you at any point tell your installer that you wanted British Gas to be your FIT payment supplier? The way it works is that you do not have to have your current energy supplier as your FIT payment supplier – you can choose any of the energy suppliers that are signed up to the scheme. In my case, to keep it simple, my energy supplier – ecotricity – is also my FIT payment supplier and my FIT payment is used to pay my electricity bill – so I haven’t had to pay an electricity bill for the last 6 months which is great. But in your case I’m assuming that the installer has made an assumption on your behalf? You don’t have to go with BG though, you could change it so your supplier is your Fit payment supplier too if you so wish.
Hope that helps
We had Solar Panels installed on 2nd December 2011, we were told by the Technical Surveyor that our meter would go backwards, we certainly had a lot of problems with the system and the system to date as been re-wired 3 times, our electric meter is still going forward quickly and our phase meter, a Landis E110 is only showing 70 watts. Can anyone please advise on this as we have had a lot of sunny days since the panels were last re-wired in end of January. I would like to know please, if possible, what the phase meter should be registering and if the electricity meter should be slower or stationary during the daylight hours.
Hi Issy
You certainly seem to have had lots of problems – do you want to name and shame your installer so others can take note?
The Technical Surveyor is obviously incompetent if he told you your usage mater should go backwards, and I would expect someone in the ‘trade’ as it were to know better.
Your generation will depend on the size of your installation. I, for eg, have a smallish 1.67 KW peak system, and at the moment, when the sun is out and there are no clouds around am hitting about 250 watts in the peak afternoon sunshine. 70watts does sound quite low, but it is dependent on your system size and orientation.
Also your usage meter, have you a real time display unit which tells you how much your home is using in electricity, you can then match it up to what your usage meter is saying it is using and see if you are actually using any of your generated power – or whether something is going wrong. Also if you can ascertain a base usage level for your home (shut everything off that can be shut off – electrically – and then see what your meter reads (when the sun is down), this will give you your baseline usage. Then do the same thing in the day when you should be generating, and see if your usage meter is running slower than at night – that will give you an indication of what is going on hopefully.
Hope this helps a little
Paula
Hi Paula,
I found your site and blog by looking into the issue of our analogue meter running backwards since our PV was commissioned on Friday.
We too are Ecotricity customers and they will also be processing our FiT application shortly. What they'll make of our analogue meter I don't yet know…
The installers we had quotes from offered export meters in some cases, but all suggested that the 50% assumption is cost beneficial to their clients (this is doubtful if we used less power than our PV was producing – with the washing machine, fridge, freezers, TV/radio and solar thermal pump all running simultaneously on Sunday!). Bring on the Summer months of extended daylight!
hi Dan
Thanks for your comment. What are you intending to do with Ecotricity? Are you going to explicitly tell them your meter is running backwards (you are not obliged to as far as i can tell), or wait and see if they work it out for themselves? It will be interesting to see if they realise you have a backward running analogue meter from the info you supply them. They didn’t realise with mine, and it was only when I realised the meter should not be going backwards and actually called them up to tell them, that they did anything about it (this was about 2 months in). Funnily enough, I got a call today from some metering company phoning on behalf of Ecotricity, wondering when would be a good time to book an appoitment to change my meter???? Confusion all around when I told them I had already had it changed in September last year?! So god knows what chaos is ensuring in these different energy companies with FiTs and meters at the moment?
In my view fitting an export meter on a domestic installation is not really worth it, getting an extra 3pence on half your total generation is probably pretty spot on, so getting a meter fitted to gauge this more accurately is probably not worth the expense. And if you do use more than 50% then you are quids in anyway!
hi all
we have installed a 4KW system in november and have been a bit lucky with the weather and started generating, recently however my digital meter started displaying the message rEd ( reverse energy detection) which after some research online found that it is related to the sysytem generating and feeding electicity units to the grid, i am however a bit worried that the meter is registering the exported units as imports and therefore i am paying for it especiallly that this message seem to be on at night as well when the system id dormant and not generating, has anyone experienced this and how they delt with it. i did contact my utility company and awaiting their reply
Hello Mohhamad, I have the same set up as yours 4kw and my meter is alternating ReD i just through it was a tamper protection thing ? I would be interested to find out but I don't see any other replies to this issue?
Hi All, We had PV installed in Nov 2011 and also have the old style meter as shown above. We are with npower for electricity and on the form we filled in to join the scheme one of the questions was, Is your electricity meter running backwards, we answered yes to this, so they have been informed from day one of this. It has been 3 months since the installation and we haven't heard anything from npower regarding changing the meter but I did keep a copy of the forms that clearly states the meter is running backwards.
hi Susan
THanks for this. Was the form a particular npower-provided form rather than the generic form you fill in to register your system with your FiTs supplier? As I certainly did not have a question on backwards running meters when I filled mine in?? And I don’t think the rest of the people I have talked to on this had that either. Maybe it’s a new thing, now that energy suppliers are slowly waking up to this rather widespread issue.
You’ve done you duty, re informing them, it will be interesting to see how long it takes them to come and replace your meter. Please keep us informed, it will be fascinating to see how response times vary between the suppliers, and whether, if they take their time about it, they try to claw back any of the lost revenue through you meter running backwards when it shouldn’t.
Npower had the same question on mine back in November 2011, but it was not telling me RED until the panels started to generate a larger amount a few weeks after
Hi, I had a system installed a few months ago and have had a backwards meter at a fw odd times. I have an EoN energy measuring thingy which I have calculated does (correctly) show the difference between appliances actual usage and the power generated which is encouraging. Should I tell my supplier I have installed PV panels then? I clearly do keep on side. Supplier BG and FiT provider EoN. Are your guidelines ready yet (Feb 2012 you say) or is it a bit early.
Many thanks
Graham
hi Graham
Thanks for your comment. You have got an unusual situation with your energy supplier being different to your FiT provider. I think typically people tend to stay with their existing provider for their FiT payment (as there is absolutely no difference in tariff across the board and the FiT supplier is simply acting as a payment distributor in essence) as then you are not dealing with two suppliers unnecessarily, and hence the supplier automatically gets to know that you have had PV fitted. In your case, I guess there is no actual legal requirement for you to tell your energy supplier you have had PV installed – as normally it makes no difference to the energy supplier, they will just notice a reduction in your energy usage and hence in your bill. However, if you have a backwards running meter then I guess you could argue that the customer does have a duty to tell their supplier as the meter is doing something it shouldn’t and that you are actually receiving an amount of grid electricity that you are not paying for. Although at the moment I’m not sure it is written into law anywhere that you must tell them. Although I do know that npower are now asking people on their FiT form whether their usage meter is going backwards, although that would not catch people who have seperate energy and FiT suppliers. But maybe, slowly, the suppliers are catching onto this.
What I am hearing is that the suppliers are pretty incompetent anyway, and if you ring up and tell them you think there might be a problem with an old meter running backwards because of PV they probably will not do anything about it, but at least you can say you did your duty, especially if you keep a record of the time/date of call and maybe record it too.
My briefing note isn’t available yet unfortunately, I’m finding out new stuff all the time and so it keeps evolving
Best Paula
Hi Paula
We had a 4kW PV system installed two days ago and midday today (nice and sunny) we were producing around 3kW which I thought was very good for early March. I looked at our electricity meter and it was indeed running backwards. This meter has digits but has a 'spinning wheel' below them and is twenty years old. As our daily usage is very small I imagine that we will have a negative meter reading situation very soon. We are supplied by British Gas and have registered with them for the FIT so I will wait for their documentation to come back before I do anything. We have also had a 9.2 kW array fitted at work using Scottish Power and they have told us that if the meter runs backwards there is a problem. As yet I have not been there today to check this. I rather assumed that the MCS certified installers had this sort of thing under control but that reminds me never to assume!
Hello Paula , I had a previous extended comment – but I think my link below says it all – except that today 3rd March my spot peak reading at 3pm on my 4 kw system was 1.9kW, yesterday I generated 8.7 kWh. meter spinning in reverse beautifully and I am off abroad for a a few months and expect the meter to be near zero when I return ( its an old digital readout model by sangamo western. What a moral dilemma I am in – but as I got screwed for a few £ thousand by a goverment department a few years ago its time I got some back methinks – so I intend being unavailable when the R.E.C. twigs. I recommend navitron for everything associated with solar.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13761.0.html
Hi Bill
Thanks for your comment. It will be interesting to see what happens in your case, as you will be away. I'm assuming you were not given any advice about backwards spinning meters from your PV installer? I'm beginning to wonder if there are any competent installers out there??
THanks for the link to the navitron website too. Very useful discussions on there
Further to my last – the meter is Sangamo Weston and I confirm the digits are actually clocking backwards – i.e. with an ever reducing reading-I am with Eon
Several Points.
to the person concerned about the reverse detection on his meter, usually, once it has been activated having detected reverse flow, it will stay visible. (ie it will show up at night too) its meant to help the meter reader detect Fraud. so the idea is that they can reset it if they want to..but you cant.
to the person concerned about the generated electricity being counted as consumed electricity.
according to the manufacturers responses to ofgem (in 2003) in this document
http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Networks/ElecDist/Policy/DistGen/Documents1/5560-manufacturer_poll_response_summary.pdf
So first thing is, Ofgem and govt know exactly which meters do what when recording (or not) generated electricty.
you can bet the suppliers do too…if not because ofgem made the data public…but also because it will cost them a lot to not know.
All the metersdeal with reverse flow in a sensible manner, with the possible exception of some Elster electronic meters, which 'can' be configured (by the installer) to operate in 'power flow insensitive mode.' which will increment the counter regardless of which way it flows.. however, not all do this.. and in any case the reverse flow is also recorded (internally) so if you found this was the case the meter could be read to determine how much reverse flow there was..and adjust you bill accordingly..again, probably for Fraud purposes, ie, if you connected you meter up backwards for a month to keep your bill down… they would know.. and charge you for the reverse flow as well.
regarding reverse running in general and notification.
a friend of mine had 4kw installed, and amazingly a new meter turned up within a month, he hadn;t said anything.
(supplier Scottish and Southern)
my boss notified his supplier, and has been told it will be a while, but thanks for letting them know..
(british gas).
One of the guys that work for the company i bought my Solar Thermal Kit from, has also had PV installed,
he showed me his bill/FIT payment from EoN. he had just under 4kw and had a payment from Eon for 1700quid..
but mentioned to me he was worried that they would 'get upset' when they next read his meter as it was a large number units lower than the last reading..(they had billed him on estimates for 9 months, he had his meter in an in accessible location and over winter made sure he used as much electricity as he could… and by the spring…it was just about positive again.
I am considering how i should play the reverse running situation now i am generating enough on sunny days to have a meter which reads less at the end of the week than it did at the start. unless i take steps to stop it.
I agree though, its nice to use the grid as storage for the energy i've generated.
it means i can run my hot tub at night now and not feel too guilty 🙂
EDF (supplier and FIT provider) have yet to send out the FIT welcome pack (despite registration taking place well before the December deadline.) I have queried this twice now and have been told it will be a 'few' months.
The significance of this welcome pack is that it also includes a number of rules/regs etc which you effectively have to sign up to for acting as a 'generator' (this is separate to the FIT application documents, which i sent in at install time..and recieved notification of acceptance.
in part of this document, it refers to the situation where a meter runs backward and states that it is the generators responsibility to inform the supplier.
if this is subsequently discovered, various financial threats are mentioned, clawback of estimated usage based on proevious bill for the same period and perhaps more extremely significantly.. the possiblility of your installation being ejected from the ofgem register of FIT eligable installations.
ie, you'll lose your 40+p or whatever…for the remainder of the term of the FIT aggreement. and that wouldn;t matter which supplier you use either, as your system will be 'struck off the fit register'
Now, i only know this as i saw a version of the document (marked as specimin or draft) and read it through.
but so far… i'm still waiting for EDF to pull their finger out and catch up and send me 'my' documents to sign.
so i would recommend being 'very' careful not to antagonise your supplier too much.
rememeber, the FIT is a good deal… (ok the export bit sucks) but the generation tarrif is good. for the full period.
and you are getting paid nearly 4 times what your units cost you to buy…roughly
so i look at it like this…for every unit i generate (and pump in to the grid or not) i can take 4 out…and still be better off.) and i will let them know..as soon as i sign to agree that i must tell them…or that the amount i pump back into the grid becomes rediculous..
as it is, at the moment, if i run the hottub, or the oven for a bit…i can keep it moving forward on a weekly basis and enjoy the electricity.
Though my water heating is already Solar (Thermal) I am planning a small current activated switch to enable a modified (low current) immersion heater to run when i have excess generation.
I have found a supplier who will make a custom Immersion with 2 separate elements.. so i plan to have a 250w and 1000w Element, 250w for the winter/cloudy days when its not generating much. and 1000w for the sunny days. so that should certainly help me 'consume' more of what i generate.
so, is it worth risking the 25year FIT for what might be small 'cost' by comparison ?
thank you
I’d just like to say that i install solar PV and whenever i see an old analogue spinning meter I ALWAYS tell the householder to tell their energy supplier! So yes there are competant installers out there!!
Plus with the amount of people having PV installed, the energy companies are sure to know something is wrong when you are giving in a rather low reading for your normal electric bill, they know how much you usually use and how much you generate, so i’d be very carefull about trying to fiddle the system!
Hi Laura
Thanks for your comment, and its good to see there are competent, reliable installers out there. You are the first installer to leave a comment on these pages!
Keep up the good work, with over 300 searches on the topic in February alone, I think unfortunately that there are still quite a few installers that are not informing their customers of the issue
Are there any other installers out there that want to comment on the situation?
I would just like to say the following:
If your meter does not go backwards, you are wasting YOUR electricity.
This electricity is being generated by YOUR solar panels and they want to pay you 3p a unit for it.
Yet when they sell you electric, they charge you 13p plus a daily standing charge. No wonder they make billions.
So it's your electric.
Choices:
1. use it all as it is generated. Not possible, as you may not be at home all the time.
2. Store it in batteries for use later. Again not possible for nearly everyone.
3. Store it in the grid for use later. This is effectively what is happening whe the meter goes back. YOUR electric is being stored for you, so you can use it later.
The utility companies don't like this. They would rather pay you 3p per unit, and sell it back to you for 5 times the price. What a con.
Hi Paula I had my 4kWp solar PV system installed on 18/02/12. My installer clearly advised that my analogue meter would likely go backwards when the generated electricity was greater than the grid useage, and that I should let my energy supplier know this. So, I downloaded the FiT form from NPower, and there was a section asking if the meter turned backwards at all. I duly ticked this box. I also rang NPower's Microgeneration department to inform them of it, where they asked me to check it daily to confirm that the dial was going backwards. After about a week, I e-mailed them to confirm that this was the case. To date (3 weeks from the installation), I've generated about 200kWh and my grid meter reading has gone down about 15kWh from the reading I took just over a week ago. I consider that I've given NPower plenty of notice regarding the backwards running meter, so hopefully they won't penalise me if they drag their heels getting a new one installed. In the meantime, I don't need to wait for the sun to come out before I switch all of the appliances on! But, I'm gradually changing my useage habits for when the new meter is finally installed. By the way, for a 4kWh system, I received 5 quotes ranging from £8.5k up to £11.5k. I didn't go for the cheapest, but went for a local company who were qualified electricians and roofers, using european made mono-crystalline panels. They did an excellent job and certainly knew their stuff.
Thanks Paul
Its refreshing (but unusual) to hear such a glowing recommendation of an Installer. It will be interesting to see how long it takes nPower to get your meter changed. I would record the date/time of your initial call as well as keep a copy of the email you sent, just in case.
I’ll send you seperately the briefing sheet we have produced on PV and meters, just for your info.
It would be great to get an update when/if you get you meter changed and what nPower do with regards to the lost revenue
Good luck with your generation
Best Paula
Hi Paula.
Just an update to my previous post. On 01/04/12, I notified NPower of my meter readings for the month. My electricity (grid) meter showed a reduction of over 50kWh from the previous month. I also sent another e-mail to NPower to highlight this and ask (again) politely when they would be arrangeing to install a new meter. Lo and behold, I received a mail back from them the very next day, with a number of dates for me to choose the installation of the new meter. At present, it is scheduled for 26/04/12. By the way, in the past 7 weeks I've generated just over 500kWh – thanks to the glorious sunshine in March.
Hi Paula,
I have read all the above comments with interest. I know two people who have had PV installations where their supply meter is running backwards. One was installed in November, the installer told him that his meter would go backwards and that this was OK as the industry did not know what to do about it. In the second instance, installed a few days ago the installers told them that this was OK as they could use the "stored" electricity at night. I had a 4KW installation back in December, when the installer saw I had a new type of digital meter (about 6 yrs old), he told me I would have been been better off with the old analogue meter as they run backwards.
My energy supplier is OVO energy. The FIT is registered with BG. Having read the BG documentation through more than once I can find no reference to reporting meters running backwards, though there are many references to fraud which may amount to the same thing.
About a week after the installation I noticed the meter showing rEd as mention earlier. Not having a clue what this was all about I contacted OVO to see if this was a meter fault. At first nobody new what I was talking about other than it may be something to do with the PV sytstem. They called me back to say they thought rEd was "reverse energy detection". The next question was "is your meter running backwards?" . This was their greatest concern!
However we are very pleased withe the generation so far. Just sent the first reading to BG who calculated that the system is running at 122%.
I had my 4kW PV system installed on the 21st February and have registered for the FiT with First Utility who are also my supplier. I waited for a nice sunny weekend day and sure enough my old mechanical Landis & Gyr meter was rotating backwards. So far I have only received a couple of emails from First Utility confirming acceptance of my generation agreement and registration of the system with ofgem. They have said nothing about meters going backwards, although I know one of the managers from the solar PV system supply company and he said that my electricity supplier would install a new supply meter. I think I will keep a regular record of meter readings just in case. Mark Pavic – can you advise the name of the supplier of the customised immersion heater or post a link – once the metering situation is sorted out I will be looking for ways to use all I generate.
Well my solar has been up since nov my first bill arrived. £50 more than it should be my panels are adding units to my smart meter making my bills dearer,could do with a link to 250watt. And 1000w Emerson heaters
hi Nick
This is interesting (and unfortunate), I had heard rumours that smart meters were not compatible with PV systems but I had not heard of actual experiences of it until now.
You need to get this sorted, as PV generation is picking up now its March and you could find yourself with huge electrcity bills in the spring/summer months if this isnt looked at and solved.
Is it adding the exact amount you are generating to your usage meter? Or is it a proprortion of it.
Can we have a conversation about this off blog?
Best Paula
Hi Paula,
Thanks for your reply (29th Feb). I have decided to try to inform my supplier (British Gas) I have solar PV. I have heard recently of someone who had PV for some time (not sure how long) with an old meter and when his supplier found out they back calculated what he owed them. I know the legal position is not clear and nor is where the liability sits but I think as you say a consumer should have a "duty of care". After all, if a meter was faulty and it was discovered that it had been reading high for some time I think most people would expect the supplier to pay something back.
Best wishes
Graham
Hi Graham
Thanks for the update I think you are wise informing BG – whether they do anything about it then is their issue.
My briefing note is ready now so will forward to you at your email address.
Please keep us updated on your situation.
All the best
Paula
I have wiped the best part of 9000kw off my day reading since my system (2.4kW) was installed in December and this was picked up by my supplier. There is no way I generated that much spare capacity either – suggesting backward readers are inaccurate. Actual recorded power from my system is 350kWh. I think you are best to 'fess up' as they say in the USA. You may not get hauled before the beak for fraud if you stay mum but you will not get off with free power for ever either. Energy suppliers look at usage patterns and will twig eventaully if bills go down and stay down. It was suggested to me that retrospective estimating will bill at current kWh rates. So if the rates have increased from the period over which you actually used power it is that new and higher rate that will be used to come up with a 'what you owe us' figure. Further, estimates can be a lot higher than actaul usage.
My Solar Panels were installed by a supplier who advised me about the reverse meter issue. I have dual fuel and my FITS payments from British Gas. My meter is analogue and runs backwards. It currently reads significantly less than at my last bill. I emailed British Gas Customer Services explaining the issue. They responded [right at the end of their 48hour target reponse period] to say that they had forwarded my enquiry to their "renewables" department who would respond within 5 working days. After 7 working days with no response I emailed the renewables department with a copy of the enquiry, the original response and asking for someone to deal with the enquiry. A further 7 working days has since passed and I am still waiting for a reply or some action. I have of course kept a copy of all the emails ready for the argument with British Gas after the next bill when they will appear to owe me money according to the meter reading.
Hi Paula,
Yes, there certainly is a lot of confusion around with regard to metering. I have a 4kW PV system, installed in November 2011, and an analogue supply meter. When the sun is shining the rotating disk in my supply meter does indeed run backwards but the gearing is such that the analogue dials do not count in reverse, so the meter reading is effectively frozen whilst I am exporting power. Some analogue meters will run as mine does but some other analogue meters will actually count in reverse whilst power is being exported. Certainly in my case I do not believe that it is the installers' responsibility to get the analogue meter changed for a digital or 'smart' meter. My installers (ECO NRG) did a very good job of installing my 16 solar panels, inverter, separate generation meter etc. and did point out to me that the supply meter might be capable of going in reverse. The npower FIT application form included a section asking whether the meter could turn backwards, and I replied 'Yes.' Had I realised that the rotating disk in the meter didn't actually turn the dials in reverse I could have answered 'No' to that question. Four months on and the npower FIT Team have still not acknowledged, let alone acted upon the information given to them about the analogue meter. I have emailed the npower general customer enquiry department about the subject and they also have ignored my message.
On a separate note, your opening paragraphs as above state: " To be clear, backward running meters only occur if you have an older, analogue style meter, like the one shown below, coupled with a PV system. In this case, every KwH of generated solar PV will be registered, consumed locally or not, through the electricity usage meter literally running backwards." I cannot agree with the statement that every kWh of generated energy is registered on the electricity usage meter because if, for instance, I am consuming 5kW and simultaneously generating 5Kw then any supply meter would stand still as there would be no current flowing through it. My entirely separate generation meter simply records the entire output of the solar panels, regardless of whether that output is consumed locally or exported to the public grid.
Best regards, Chris
Hi Chris
THanks for this. I beleive what you have is known as a ‘Back stop’ meter, so if you are having all of your local electrcity needs covered by your PV generation, the supply meter will come to a standstill, and if you are generating more than you are using then it will not turn the digits backwards. Interesting that the wheels are running backwards though!
I agree wth you that it is not the installer’s responsibility to get your meter changed, but it is their repsonsibility to inform the PV owner about the issues if they do have an older analogue supply meter. The anecdotal evidence I have collected, including my own experiece, shows that some installers are givng downright wrong information about whether the meter should spin backwards or not.
Yes, I agree the words in that original blog need rewording slightly. Obviously the meter only spins backwards if you generate more than you use. I have produced a more recent briefing sheet that spells things out clearly.
Be interesting to hear if and when your supply ever does pull its finger out and come to check your meter and maybe change to a digital version.
Best wishes
Paula
Hi, I too have a concern that my old type meter runs backwards, my panels were installed completely free and as such I get to use the solar power generated, but do not partake in a FIT scheme. Panels were installed a week ago and I have been monitoring them both with an "OWL" energy monitor and also regular checking of the meter. I also monitored all my appliances for a week PRIOR to the solar panels going up, interestingly, when I turned the main switch off and took readings to calibrate my monitor, it actually showed that I was using 84 watts! I checked the actual meter and that was slowly moving, so does that mean over the years I have been paying for power that I have not consumed? Not sure what to do now, do I wait for my next bill or do I carry on monitoring and logging everything? It would be useful to know the exact legal position, I have a duty to pay my bills but how do I know if they are correct?
hi stephen
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘turning the main switch off’? what switch is this?, is it supposedly cutting off electricity to your home? That seems very odd if it isand you are still seeing the meter moving forward!
Do you have an old analogue meter and are you seeing the meter move backwards at all when the sun is out and you are generating more than you could possibilty be using?
Best Paula
Hi Paula, The switch is the main switch on the fuse box ( you turn it off when you need to do any electrical work). Yes, my meter is an old one and it does indeed turn backwards when the sun is out. With this lovely sunny spell we are having I'm sure that all my electrical needs are met during daytime as I am also very careful as to what and when I switch appliances on/off…….Steve
I have had solar panels fitted since 12/2009 meter goes back lied told them is was it not on the form , but how can they work out what you have used as when suns out and say you have the tumble dryer on and oven ,the meter would be going backwards before switching on then going forwards when switching on but not as fast . some times my meter reads less than last bill but have a online account where you give your readings so you adjust to make sure more than last bill. Will probably get caught out oneday
Dear Paula,
I have had solar panels since last May, which were fitted free, and have indeed reduced my bills when the weather is being kind!! However, recently my eldest son left home and I have noticed a big difference in electricity usage. My meter spins back when the sun shines and when I was asked for a recent reading it was less than the month before. BG have informed me that I must have a faulty meter as it is running backwards so they wish to come and replace it. My worry is, what sort of meter is compatible with Solar panels, smart meters have not had a good write up! Should I ask them what type of meter they intend to use first? Can they insist on changing the meter? Will this mean an end to my so say "free electricity". Answers pleeeeease.
hi Angela
Your meter being changed will not be the end to your ‘free electricity’ but it will be an end to you getting free electricity for every kW you are producing (but not necessarily using). One way to maximise use of the electcity you are producing is to ensure you do your washing, drying and cooking (if you are electric) when the sun is out. You will be lucky if the supplier doesn’t attempt to estimate how much electricity you have taken from the grid and not paid for over the past 12 months – and then try to claim that back from you! Fingers crossed that will not happen and they will just replace your ‘faulty’ meter and that will be the end of the matter
Good luck
Paula
I am in West Australia and had a 1.64 solar system installed last week. As the installers were leaving the premises I noted we were generating 1.405 kw. (midday and sunny) We then switched off all main appliances and checked our old meter, it was running backwards, and as this is read bi-monthly by a meter reader this can only be a good thing! The energy company will only credit 7cents per unit for electricity returned but charge 21cents for our consumption. We did get a huge gvt. grant for installation! We are supposed to apply for a smart meter to enable proper accounting for the energy company but I like things as they are!!!!
I live across the pond in the US. The comments are interesting. I cannot speak to any legal requirements you may have, but I can speak to metering. All electric meters will show reverse registration if it is present. Whenever a customer has generation facilities the possibilty exists that they will put power back on the system. This is what happens when your generation exceeds your demand. Sounds like this is not permitted in the UK. Over here you can sell back you excess power. We do have customers that recieve checks from us. The smart meters also show reverse registration. It is classified as recieved power, as opposed to delivered power that the customer uses fron the utility. The difference comes from the rules, regulations and requirements of the governing bodies responsible for electricity regulations. They still recieve the reverse registration – the differnce comes in what they do with the information.
Hi Richard
Thanks for your comments and insight into what happens in the US. With our system we do, automatically, put excess pv generated electricity back in the grid. Our Feed in tariff system (FiTs) pays micro-generators an amount for every kW we produce regardless of whether it is used by the homeowner or not, and then an extra 3pence for the excess that is fed into the national grid. In the UK homeowners do not usually get export meters fitted, instead the energy suppliers estimate that we use half our generated power, and the other half goes to the grid. so we usually get the extra 3pence on 50% of our total generation. Research has shown that in many cases only 25% of the pv pwoer is used at home, but 50% seems to be the average everyone is reasonably happy with.
Its seems to be that any meter with a spinning disc technology will go backwards, other meters, such as the one I have had installed since informing my supplier of the issue, are called ‘backstop’ meters and do not turn backwards when an excess of pv electrcity is generated.
Smart meters are another story, I’ve heard incidently that the smart meters that the UK are specifing for the rollout do not work with PV systems at all!!!
All a little confusing over here at the moment!
Best wishes
Paula