Listen to me talking to Winifred Robinson on Radio 4’s You & Yours about this issue, here.
Curiously, ever since I blogged about my confusion regarding my electricity usage meter running backwards following a solar PV installation, I’ve received 1000s ‘search term’ hits to my website on this very subject. It seems like there is quite a lot of confusion out there – not just me then!
To be clear, backward running meters only occur if you have an older, analogue style meter, like the one shown below, coupled with a PV system. In this case, every KwH of generated solar PV will be registered, consumed locally or not, through the electricity usage meter literally running backwards. If you generate more than you use (a possibility in summer months), over an extended period you could find yourself with a meter reading that is lower than your last meter reading. This is clearly not what is supposed to happen. Your usage meter should only register the amount of local generated power you use by not turning at all if your generated power meets your needs, and turning more slowly if it partially meets your need and hence your demand on the grid is lowered.
So far I have only come across one other person with an analogue meter plus PV, but she too had no idea that there was anything wrong, and certainly was not told by her PV installer (a different company to mine) that this would need to be changed. She has just celebrated her first anniversary of PV ownership, and hence a year of very low electricity bills too!
I find it quite astonishing, and not a little remiss, that the installers are not making this situation clear to customers. Is it not part of the basic PV installer training to warn people that this will be the case with analogue style meters, and that they will need to inform their energy company that they will require an upgrade?
I’m also not clear where liability lies in this situation? When you register your PV system with your FiT payment supplier (which does not need to be your energy suppler BTW) you do state what meter you have, but in my experience, and that of the other analogue meter/PV owner, nothing comes of this. There does not seem to be a recognition within the FiT payment suppller that this is an issue. Which is curious given that they will potentially be losing out on revenue if they supply your power too.
So, take the situation of a PV owner running an analogue meter for years before their energy supplier twigs. Will the householder be liable for paying back the actual amount of electricity they have used from the grid but not paid for? Apart from the issues surrounding the estimating of exactly how much is owed, on which side is the onus to ensure the meter is changed to a digital ‘backstop’ electricity meter promptly?
If the householder is not informed that it is a problem at the commissioning stage, and doesn’t really understand what is happening (I only realised there might be an issue because through the summer I was generating more than I was using, so had a negative meter reading situation) is it their responsibility, are they legally liable? Or is it the responsibility of the FiT payment suppler to check the meter type? But if the FiT payment supplier is not the energy supplier, then there is no incentive there either?
I've attached below an extract from the Energy Saving Trust website which I assume is definitive, accurate and up-to-date but I can't be certain because the EST is a Quango. The clause about Export Tariff is relevant. If you are eligible to receive FITs you will benefit in three ways: Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked. Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big). Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.
The two pras below are from the Energy Saving Trust website and should be up-to-date definitive and accurate however the EST is a Quango so I could be wrong.
Richard
f you are eligible to receive FITs you will benefit in three ways:
Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked.
Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big).
Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.
When a PV system is commissioned a G83 form is sent by the installer to the DNO ( the DNO owns incoming supply meter and all of the grid infrastructure) and they are aware of their own make and model of meter fitted at the property, there is a question on the form which asks 'does meter need replacing' and the installer ticks the box. By law the installer has 28 days after commissioning to submit this form, after submission it is up to the DNO to replace any incompatible meter, and until they do it is there loss. Ultimately if you have used a reputable installation company then they will have filled out the correct paperwork within the rules laid out by MCS, and you dont need to worry, just enjoy your double bubble.
My experience of British Gas is as follows.
I saw my meter going backwards quite by accident and informed British Gas metering in May, shortly after my solar PV install. They agreed to replace the meter free of charge, but not until the end of August. However they offered no solution to how I should be billed in the interim. Eventually they accepted that they could not estimate my usage, so agreed to use the last known 'good' meter reading I'd taken in April, effectively giving me free electricity for 4 months.
Even better, they missed their appointment in August to change the meter, so I got £22 compensation, and re-scheduled the meter change for end of October. I'm just waiting to hear back from a manager to confirm I'm going to get another 2 months free electricity.
My view on all this is that it is the supplier's equipment therefore their responsibility. I have acted promptly and in good faith throughout. Further, there is no way of them accurately knowing what proportion of electricity I have generated vs. imported therefore I'm going to refuse any estimate they may come up with, even if it ends up with the Ombudsman.
I had my pv installed 20 August. The installers said that I might see meter going backwards but not to worry about it. I had two web chats with edf who just said that they would note it. I still did not think that was correct and when I spoke to a human being I was told that I needed a new meter installed as I was breaking the law. I have it arranged for thurs 12 sept. at first edf said that it would be between 8-1 and hen I said I would be out half hour while taking children to school I was I informed that should they arrive in that half hour the would force entry to change meter as meter belonged to them eventually after complaining to customer services about attitude I now have a two hour time slot. All they were interested in was repeating telling me that I was breaking the law. I voluntary contacted them within 2 days of installation which I think is very good. I keep hearing of People not even contacting the energy supplier or not doing anything for years. I just wanted it sorted and not be charged back dated bills.
I believe Debbie (see above) is squeaky clean both legally and morally and EDF are being heavy-handed in suggesting that she may be breaking the law. I think the onus is on them to ensure that her consumption is being measured and billed correctly. The MCS (Microgeneration Certification Scheme) lays out a procedure to standardise all aspects of PV installations, including technology, safety and documentation. This is complicated stuff though and I don't think the end customer has any responsibility to understand it or even to know of its existence. Many people never look at their electricity meter and I don't believe they are required to. This is all speculation though. What we still lack is any clear guidance as to what the law requires. Certainly the end user does not own the meter and is not told who in the generation/distribution/billing arena does own it. My belief is that the billing provider has every opportunity to ensure that the metering it fit for purpose, all necessary information is available to them and if they are relying on readings from an electro mechanical meter, the ball is in their court. I doubt if the customer has any legal responsibility to inform the billing provider of the type of meter fitted, this is the kind of thing which the MCS procedure is for. Again though, this is just my take on it, we lack clear guidance.
WATTLESS Metering has been in use for about 60 to 70 years. What is everybody's problem ??.
I think the issue is the deemed export. If you always use more than you generate, then you benefit from electricity savings and 50% export. If you use less than you generate at times the meter could go backwards, which gives you the same benefit. By fitting a backstop meter, then people who use less electricity at home are being penalised over those who use all their generation on site. The only fair solution would be compulsory export metering, but this is just too costly at present.
My 4kW PV array was fitted in Feb and it was such a poor day the installer couldnt tell if my meter went backwards so noted ' Not that I can tell' on the form.
Since then I have seen it race backwards and at first this was a bit of a giggle.
Im with NPower and was using their meter reading app on my phone, however I realised after logging into the website that none of my readings had gone to my account, so I gave up submitting readings.
So now I am some 9 months on, never had a bill (even though Npower have taken a reading since) and about £1200 in credit with NPower. I assume the lack of billing is due to lack of meter readings. Mind you I have never been billed for gas either…
They are next scheduled to read the meter in December (according to my account) so I have bought the wife a tumble dryer and am using a halogen heater in the lounge in the evenings to try and get my meter back into the positive so NPower dont twig whats going on – only 200 units to go and IM in the clear.
Morrally this is bad I know, but it will all be sorted when they fit Smart meters so Im looking forward to minimal electric bills until then.
I have just had a phone call from First Utility wanting to change my digital meter because it can't tell the difference between positive and negative which means when I am putting back into the grid the meter is charging me. Who is at fault and how do I get my money back? I have asked the solar panel company to give me what has gone back to the grid so that I can quantify a cost.
hi Tony
I sympathise, I have heard of this happening before, but only rarely. The problem is with asking your solar company to give you an idea of how much you exported will be impossible unless they fitted an export meter – something that is not common for domestic installations as they are generally too small to warrant an export meter. I guess you can try to lay the blame at the energy company’s door if you explicitly told them you have a PV installation (are they your FiT provider too by chance? Then they would have automatically been informed) and maybe flagged up the meter.
Good luck, I’d be interested to hear how you get on with this, as I’m sure your situation isn’t as rare as it may seem. i beleive there may be issues with Smart Meter integration with PV installions too.
Paula
Wow that was odd. I just wrote an incredibly long comment but after I clicked
submit my comment didn’t appear. Grrrr… well I’m not writing all that over again.
Anyway, just wanted to say fantastic blog!
I have had a few pv systems installed.they r no regs regarding meters going backwards.thr elec company is told u have pv and they know what meter you have but don’t have the people to check this.you are not responsible for beening back charged for this.how ever to be real.they r going to notice after a month of sunshine.so in shirt the odds of it not beening noticed after 2 say 3 months meter reads is remote.they cannot charge you or estimate your bill.when the meter goes backwards.they use this system in some states in usa.thats why they have smaller systems.no fit there.so people dont want to give back to the grid for free.they use meters which go backwards
Hi. i had my solar system 3k installed in 2007. I remember the installer gleefully tellig me to look at the analogue meter as it turned backwards as the sun shone, when I wasn't using all of the produced electricity from my panels.I registered for my FIT's and, after months of trying to get the forms right, and dealing with helplines that seem to make the situation even more un-understandable, I started receiving payments. My payments are actually quite low, but I was happy to be getting a bit for what I produced. I have had VERY VERY low electricity bills since the panels were installed, so the FIT payments were just the icing on the cake..I thought all this reversing of the analogue meter was just normal. Then I made a fatal error of changing suppliers to save money – to NPOWER. Within 6 months with them they wanted to come and change the meter to a digital one.. This they have just now done (November 2013) and, gues what, my bills have doubled. I rang them, and they told me to have the old analogue turning back was ILLEGAL and it must have had a fault on it. This was completly unknown to me. I enquired about an export meter and they said they didn;t do them for systems as small as mine.I'm very disappointed now that I am "losing" the extra electricity I am making. All they suggested was doing my high energy things (washing machine, dishwasher, cooking) when the sun is out.
Thanks for you site.
Chris.
Hi,
My analogue electric meter is turning backward after installation of 4.4Kw PV system here in Manila, Philippine. But I don't notice the reading is decreasing. Do all analogue meter reading will reduce bec of excess PV electricity production?
pls enlighten me on this issue.
Thanks
Jepson
Found this blog whilst looking for answers on this subject. I was suprised their was not more out there on this subject TBH. We are in same boat as u guys, didn't realise it was a possible issue until we changed suppliers and second reading wa lower Han the first. They have since contacted us to say they intend to change our old meter
So my question to the floor is this:
Do we have to get rid of our old meter? We are happy to have a new one installed and to have also readings from, but want to keep the old one as a guide on how efficient our solar pannels are running. On a sunny day the wheel dial runs backwards superfast! And we like to have this (can't explain quite why). I've looked at legislation I can find and seems the electric board own our meter… But does that mean they have power to remove and disconnect our old one as well… I imagine the answer is yes, but thought I would throw it out there…. They are coming in 15 days so answers on a post card before then please 😀
Chris
I had my solar installed, and then my electric meter began going back. Last year reading is less than this year. so the company N power sent a letter to ask for the correct reading, for which I have no answer. I am bit at loss if they change my meter to digital which has lock to anti revind.
dont know what to do
I've just had free solar panels installed and didn't think the meter going backwards was a problem until I tried to input a meter reading online. I'm currently with Scottish power but with the potential saving from the panels wanted to change to a different supplier who charges a lower standing charge. I've emailed Scottish Power so I'll let you know the outcome.
Hi A week ago I had my digital economy seven meter changed to a digital single tariff meter, I duly noted the meter readings at change over, a week on I went to check the meter reading and low and behold it reading less.why? I do not have any pv panels installed. Is it just a case the engineer got his input and output terminals crossed. Npower dont seemed to be bothered when informed.
Reading all these blogs are great! As I have a backward turning dial. I have had them since last October, and have low bills! Now I have returned from holiday to letter from EON to say they think I have faulty metre.
My question is, is it a legal requirement to have it changed to a digital dial?
I have just had solar panels installed and have a traditional meter. The issue is the meter has not been reading for the last two years. Scottish Power have attempted to replace to a smart meter but their third party fitters are jobs worths so refused as they have to go into a loft. (Don’t ask, the property is very old and the owners had it installed here) I have had to take it the Ombudsman twice! So some things I’ve learnt to share. They have to claim for any missed billing under a convoluted code but they cannot just demand for any misreading. I also thought I’d share this link as very useful info on the legal rights over the changing to a SMART meter. If your old one has no known faults and you don’t wish to have it replace, legally they can’t force you. Plus in the link they talk about the right to a new meter but as dummy one so you can still control the submission of your readings. After hearing numerous horror stories of huge errors with SMART meters I am quite keen to keep the broken meter. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/can-i-be-forced-to-have-a-smart-meter/#:~:text=According to Ofgem%2C if your,a good reason not to.
We were told last year that we might need a new meter in case our meter ran backwards and produced low readings. To our knowledge it has never done this but we have had a “backstop” fitted which is supposed to prevent the meter running backwards. Our electricity company seems to have no record of the backstop, it was unofficially checked last time the meter was read but the guy concerned said he couldn’t officially confirm it was a bona fide backstop even though he looked at it and said everything is OK, your meter won’t run backwards. I have just waited in all day for someone to confirm we have a backstop and that our meter won’t run backwards. He read the meter but wouldn’t even look at the backstop or confirm that it was working.
DATE: 26-OCTOBER-2016 BY FELIX M.S.JR.:
INDEED, THE PLUG-IN SMART GRID TIE INVERTER (GTI) SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPORT THE EXCESS GENERATED POWER THAT THE SOLAR PANELS (i.e. Po= 550WATTS) TO THE UTILITY POWER COMPANY if the demand load in Watts of the HOMEOWNER user is only just 250WATTS and the excess 250WATTS (and minus the internal losses in the GTI say -50WATTS) should find it’s way back to the Power Utility Grid as excess power by the HOMEOWNER thereby supplying power to the UTILITY COMPANY as export since the generated electrical ENERGY can not be wasted or destroyed but is conserved and it can be used elsewhere in a COUPLED ELECTRIC SYSTEM WHICH IS POSSIBLE IN THIS CASE SINCE THE SOLAR PV PANELS THRU THE GTI DEVICE AND THE UTILITY POWER GRID ARE BOTH SYNCHRONIZED WITH EACH OTHER AT SAME VOLTAGE, FREQUENCY AND PHASE. SO IN THE PROCESS, THE EXISTING INSTALLED KW-HR METER OF THE HOMEOWNER SHOULD SLOW DOWN AND STOP AND THEN REVERSE IT’S DIRECTION INDICATING THAT THE ENERGY FLOW IS MOVING AWAY COMING FROM ANOTHER POWER SOURCE WHICH IS THE HOMEOWNER’S SOLAR PV PANELS WHICH IS TRUE EVEN THOUGH HE/SHE IS NOT USING YET THE NET METERING SCHEME OF THE UTILITY POWER COMPANY OR THE SO CALLED BI-DIRECTIONAL KW-HR METER AND AS SUCH THE HOMEOWNER SHOULD BE COMPENSATED FOR.
Does anyone know what happens with these new smart meters they want to install ?
I have read with interest the comments posted on this blog. I am a UK approved electrician and ex college lecturer. Users who have a meter going backwards are not ‘Breaking the law’, they are breaking the ‘rules’ of their supplier, but as others have commented, it is the responsibility of the supplier to install a correct meter for the installation.
In some countries this is allowed, it is known as ‘Nett metering’ when you generate and export, the meter decrements rather than increments. As you are putting the power into the system before you take it back out, you cannot be accused of stealing electricity, but you MUST have an inverter that complies to GS38.
Their is nothing preventing a UK consumer installing their own PV panels and inverter provided that the inverter is connected to a spur (fused connection) this avoids the need to comply with Part P. If they have an old spinning disk meter, it will go backwards to register the electricity exported. The suppliers don’t like this as they are in the business to sell, not buy electricity. Bee savvy and don’t send in a negative meter reading, even better use the excess electricity yourself to drive a heat pump. This is a grey area in law, poorly defined, if the supplier suspects you are exporting they will change the meter, but that’s up to them. On the issue of the ‘rights and wrongs’ of this, I don’t see the energy companies having a bad conscience over the prices they charge and the huge profits they make, we as consumers are just re aligning our energy usage to better suit the current pricing and metering policy in a manner that is beneficial to ourselves.
I would have a conscience if I was receiving FIT and my meter was going backwards, that would be ‘double bubble’ as I would be paid twice, that is not ethical.
Can I have bimetering data for some meters??? I need it for my research work..